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EDR
Member
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Deeswift,
You are correct, the "word" around the Internet is spreading rapidly and viciously, far more than I would have expected. The responses on this particular thread are more than I thought as well.
I’ts only been ONE DAY! JV, imagine a week or two from now. The wrath of the consumer is unbelievable and can make or break any business, in an instance. The “bad mouthing” I referred to in my previous post today is already in full force and effect and is 10 times worse than when I wrote that thread, and I haven’t participated in any of it around the Internet.
I'm sure you prepared yourself for some resistance, but I bet you have no idea how out of hand this will become.
JV, seriously, from one software vendor to another, if this matter is left unresolved, it will compound exponentially, perhaps to a point beyond repair, and you’re your reputation in this industry may be permanently adversely affected. As a business owner myself, I say these things to help you, because I know where this will go, and I’ve seen how these kind of decisions have killed businesses.
I do not think those who are writing how they will “cheat” the software are positive comments. It’s not good to cheat anyone. However, I can understand everyone’s frustration, and wanting to get back at JV in a negative way.
Since JV made the statement (twice now) that everyone that helped got a free license, he should really stand behind that, honor it, and make a public statement, with a specific date and call it the Grandfather clause. Anyone that finds that unreasonable is unreasonable. Granted, if someone joins tomorrow, and says, “Hey, I want a free license too”, obviously they are out of place. Or, if someone who joined the development forum 3 years ago, who hasn’t posted a thread in the past six months (especially anything pertaining to the development of debugging of 1.4) is also unreasonable.
Again, I stand behind the idea that since the product was released yesterday, anyone who joined the Development Forum, who actually posted bug reports, suggestions (and didn’t just write to talk to someone) prior to YESTERDAY JULY 17, 2003, should fall under a Grandfather clause and be given a free license. Anyone who did not participate in said forum and specifically in the development of 1.4, and who finds out about JV16PT later should have to pay whatever price JV is asking, of course, only if they believe they find value in it, as compared to the competition.
In fact, you can make it real simple:
1. Anyone who was a member of the development forum specifically, who posted any comments regarding bugs or product suggestions between the dates of July 15, 2002 and July 17, 2003 will receive a free license for JV16PT1.4 under our Grandfather clause. They will only receive the license for this version only. In the future people have to pay for major upgrades (i.e., 1.5, 1.6, etc.).
2. In the future JV16PT will choose, at his sole discretion, a team of beta testers and debuggers, and only those indivduals he chooses will get a free license for future versions.
JV, I believe this is the fairest, most ethical and logical solution to nip some of this heat in the bud. And, if I were you, I'd do it real soon.
EDR
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Total Posts: 55 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 12:53 am on July 19, 2003 | IP
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Hmmm
Junior Member
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Well, I guess we now know why there was a 30 day limit!
I don't begrudge anyone the opportunity of recouping time, effort, money, whatever.
But, (and this is the crux of the whole thing) TO KEEP US IN THE DARK AND THEN NOT HAVE ANY DIRECT LINK TO THIS FORUM FROM THE NEW WEBPAGE is simply cowardly and dishonest. You've gone over to the darkside my friend.
I suspect that jv is getting this sort of slimy business advice from some third party vulture that saw $$$$ with jv16 and is the one(s) really pulling the strings here. And they're probably telling jv - don't let the negative comments from past loyal users bother you, that doesn't matter you'll soon be rich (and so will we)...
Oh well, it happens to the best of us I guess. This forum will soon be gone and all those who contributed to the development of jv16 up to this point will be left high and dry - oops, are left high and dry.
Nice strategy jv. I'm sure you'll make lots of money. But you're starting out on the wrong foot bigtime; and being a scumy, dishonest business person will not be as rewarding as you think. These type of ventures can and are done with integrity all of the time. However, you jv have not begun with integrity and this will catch-up with you in the end.
By the way, $19.95 per month for normal support and $299.00 for Platinum support!!!! Come-on jv you got to be kidding - who in their right mind would even think of paying that amount money - you're just selling a stupid little utility program, not an operating system!!! Take a deep breath and wake up, you're not Bill Gates yet.
Bye, Bye
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Total Posts: 7 | Joined July 2003 | Posted on: 12:54 am on July 19, 2003 | IP
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EDR
Member
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Hey Hmmm,
You wrote:
“Nice strategy jv. I'm sure you'll make lots of money. But you're starting out on the wrong foot bigtime; These type of ventures can and are done with integrity all of the time. However, you jv have not begun with integrity and this will catch-up with you in the end.”
I agree with you, 100%, and have implied this in my foregoing statements. However, I do NOT agree with you about JV making a lot of money. I’m in the software business, and I do NOT think JV will make a lot of money at this juncture following his current course of action. His only following at this time is his loyal users. If they leave bitter, they won’t be recommending the product any more, and the biggest advertiser of them all, is download.com. Unless JV has a budget for some serious advertising, no one else will know about him, except for some Internet spots like download.com
I found JV16PT on download.com. I can assure you; users will type (more than once) in the user comment section on download.com under JV16PT to try TuneUp and Ace Utilities instead. Some may do it, just to spite JV. Once they do, the new trial user will do the math, consider the value, and I bet JV will lose most of the sales he could have had to those other competitors.
Word of mouth is a very important part of business. It's free advertising. If JV appeases his current following, even though they may get a free license and he feels he loses a little money right now, those users will still tell others to buy the product. That is a HUGE difference. Ultimately, as a result of that, JV will make a lot more money down the line. If everyone walks away upset NOW, most users will tell their friends NOT to use JV16PT and the wrath of bad mouthing will adversely affect business, especially down the line.
No matter what advice JV16PT may or may not be getting on his new venture, I can state the above with absolute certainty! I know for sure. JV, you must swallow your pride and fix this, publicly, or it could get real ugly. I hope this information helps you. EDR
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Total Posts: 55 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 1:09 am on July 19, 2003 | IP
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Tom121
Member
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EDR you always hit the bull's-eye! I actually care less. I already figured a work around, it worked for beta 2 and it also works for the final...others might just stick with 1.3x or maybe ask some friends to take a closer look at this 30 day matter...it is not fair how he treated us so as you say, at the end he will pay for it...
jv16 may think "look at this stupid Americans, they are all rich and will pay for the product"...I guess he is a little detached from reality...people will only pay as much as they have to. If they get a better product for the same price or even for free (like all that Kazaa stuff) they will take it...in my opinion a donation button would be still the best! Many future customers won't even try a product where they end up paying for it...and this way he could still offer his "services". But still, 300 bucks / month for Premium support as way too much! Not even Microsoft charges that much and people are still complaining...and as some other guy already said, as a freeware tool jv16 is great, but for 30 bucks it sucks quite a lot! I mean the reason why so many people helped him was because it was free...testing a program in so many different environments like they are actually existing is pretty much impossible for jv16, so he shouldn't underestimate the contribution of the community here...and he won't receive this much feedback once a user paid for it...
But I think we let EDR speak for us, he got the point!
(Edited by Tom121 at 1:36 am on July 19, 2003)
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Total Posts: 53 | Joined May 2003 | Posted on: 1:24 am on July 19, 2003 | IP
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DooGie
Junior Member
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"Unless JV has a budget for some serious advertising, no one else will know about him, except for some Internet spots like download.com"
EDR I feel that most of your comments are extremely valid apart from the one above.
Jouni's coding prowess is well known to me and unless I'm visiting a hell of a lot of Internet spots that not many other people know about then there are far more people who know of the existence of Power Tools and Reg Cleaner than you think.
For me the only problems are the way Jouni has gone about this in a secretive way and the high pricing for a first time release of a shareware app. If he had made us all aware of his intentions and kept the price under say $20 I don't think there would be a problem.
Looking around various sites such as Neowin tonight though you are right about the flaming. The guy is getting one hell of a hammering. Still that's just part of the learning process eh?
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Total Posts: 21 | Joined Nov. 2002 | Posted on: 1:38 am on July 19, 2003 | IP
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anewuser
Junior Member
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to clawso1:
actually, uninstalling PT1.3.x and then running PT1.4 worked so I guess jv is "(somehow?) not allowing " previous version of PT to run...
Went back to PT1.3.x
to everyone else:
I, too, am dissappointed with the strategy used to release PT1.4
Man, what a let down for all of us!
He should have stated that a long time ago. The first time I thought jv would start selling his program (I got scared for a couple of days) was while reading this tread (until it gets removed)
(Edited by anewuser at 6:47 pm on July 18, 2003)
(Edited by anewuser at 6:48 pm on July 18, 2003)
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Total Posts: 22 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 1:41 am on July 19, 2003 | IP
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Hmmm
Junior Member
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I think you're right EDR. We'll have to wait and see. I for one will never buy the product, only because of the way jv handled all of this. It's really unfortunate because jv, from what I've seen up until now, seems to be a nice guy and despite my negative comments above, I would like to see him succeed in this - BUT NOT IN THIS WAY - which makes me wonder about his integrity. Perhaps he's not a nice guy and planned on duping everyone all along.
Anyway, I suspect he was getting advice (extremely bad advice) from a third party. I've seen many established software companies behave in a similar manner (keeping customers in the dark, not being forthright, etc.), but because they've already established a buying constituency they tend to get away with it.
Jv doesn't have that established BUYING constituency and so he really hung himself before even climbing the ladder. What's even more unfortunate is I don't think an apology will cut it for many people in this case - it's kinda like a first impression, it never goes away.
His only hope (very slight) is if he does have third party investors who will help him with advertising and sort of create a new identity, but then he would need to change the name of the software. This will be extremely difficult given the nature of the net and how quickly a bad reputation gets around. It is really too bad.
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Total Posts: 7 | Joined July 2003 | Posted on: 1:49 am on July 19, 2003 | IP
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EDR
Member
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Hi Doogie!
Yes, what a tough way to learn. The School of hard knox! Thanks to everyone for your compliments on my posts. I'm doing my best to be kind to JV, not threaten him, to help him and to appease all of us. I'm trying to be the diplomat here. I'm not going to threaten to tarnish him or that I'm going to cheat and find a way to work around his 30-day lock. I just will stop using the product on principle. But, I hope we can all come to some sort of an agreement that's in everyone's best interests.
Doogie, I agree with you, JV is well known, extremely well known, but everyone that CURRENTLY knows him, also knows him under a FREE premise. I'm stating that the MAJORITY of those people will leave with a bad taste in their mouths, and not only won't support the product but will bad mouth it. In other words the intense "talk" about this cool guy named JV, with incredible coding prowess will die down substantially, and thus, he will need to build a BRAND NEW client base (or following), and build his reputation all over again, which unless he has a substantial advertising budget to reach those new people, he will lose.
You see, in my honest opinion, if a consumer does not know about TuneUp or Ace, and only hears about JV16PT, JV may get the sale (or a much larger chance of getting that sale not knowing the true competition that exists).
If JV tries to advertise predominantly on the free download.com site (which he's done in the past), other old followers will slam his rating, and will recommend those other competitors under his product. I'm not saying this is right, but it's the nature of human beings, and will happen. I've seen it happen to other vendors who post there.
Therefore, the only other way for someone NEW to hear only about JV16PT is some serious advertising, or for one of his current followers (all of us) to continue to recommend the product, even though we know it's a "pay for" shareware product, from this point forward (with the exception of the Grandfather clause). If one of us geniunely speaks highly of the product and recommends it to a friend, aquaintence or colleaugue, most times a sale wil be generated that way. I'd continue to tell people about it, as long as I wasn't bitter on principle. I won't support an unethical vendor - period.
EDR
(Edited by EDR at 2:05 am on July 19, 2003)
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Total Posts: 55 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 1:55 am on July 19, 2003 | IP
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EDR
Member
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Hmmm,
I agree with most of your comments as well. However, I don't think JV has caused damage beyond repair at this immediate juncture. It's only been a day, and a true gentleman can apologize, and can offer a fix to appease his many more "helpers" that he claimed he already took care of. He can explain himself, he can say that he's new at this and young, that he meant no harm, and he can repair it by offering one of the solutions many of us have posed in this thread. At minimum, it would be a good learning lesson for him. I would forgive him, if he demonstrated his true integrity, sucked it up, apologized and fixed the problem immediately.
But you're right, he needs to do so extremely quickly, I'm talking now - or yes, more and more people will jump on the "I'll never forgive him or support him, no matter what he says" - BANDWAGON. EDR
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Total Posts: 55 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 2:04 am on July 19, 2003 | IP
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EDR
Member
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JV,
The bottom line is: I think you should charge for your product. It's about time! You deserve to start generating some income from it. No one seems to be questioning that. The prices you are asking are debatable, based on value perceived when compared to the competition, but that's entirely your decision, not ours. You should charge whatever you want to charge, and people will buy it or they wont. Again, that is up to you.
However, as has been repeated over and over in this thread, it's the "secretive" way in which you surprised us all, mislead us, and didn't give us the opportunity to bow out before you started this major new version. In fact, you asked us all to write lists of features for you for 1.4, so you could decipher through them and find the most "desired" (or most marketable) features to sell.
And, via the course of events, it's nothing short of the obvious that you wanted all of us to help you find that last little bug or anomaly before commercial release without even telling us you were going to start charging. That is where the problem lies.
We feel used and abused! Really, we do.
God, for your sake more than ours, I hope you do the right thing here. As they say, "There is currently a window of opportunity." I would hope that you'd take advantage of that. Things are only going to get much worse as the days proceed.
I'm off for the evening! Take care all! EDR
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Total Posts: 55 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 2:24 am on July 19, 2003 | IP
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